Trolls and other objectionable Commenters, the sequel

By GottaLaff

Sometime we at TPC get nasty, vicious comments on our posts, and you'll see that we've deleted most of them. We often get asked why we're allowed to have our opinions, but "stifle free speech, the First Amendment" of others.

First, about the First: Read the Constitution. That's about preventing the government from stomping on your rights, not about your fellow citizens (who host blogs) from insisting that you treat each others (and us) with respect. It's about style, not substance. If you're a regular reader, that's pretty obvious.

Second: This is an opinion site. That's what we do. We snark, we opine, we snipe, we joke, we analyze, we are a little idiosyncratic, and we're allowed. Oh, and we're Progressive. If you disagree with us, fine. If you don't like our p.o.v. feel free to go elsewhere. In fact, start your own blog, and say whatever you'd like, that's your prerogative.

You are welcome to visit and schmooze as long as you engage in basic common courtesy.

In a previous post I laid out some guidelines:

As of January 1, 2009, I decided to make every attempt to delete troll comments if they are:

• Uncivil
• Pointlessly rambling
  
• Serve no other purpose other than to attempt to provoke a fight
• Redundant (ie: posting the same comment in several threads)
• Argumentative, simply spewing lies, without providing substance/facts
• Excessive in length (that goes for sympathetic Comments, too)
• Random, uncalled-for, irrelevant snottiness without regard to the content of that particular post
  

If I left anything out, please feel free to add to the list.

There are exceptions to all of these, of course. If a comment is longer than usual, but it's from a Commenter who adheres to protocol 99.9% of the time, we tend to be lenient. If a Comment is relatively innocuous, but simply annoying, that's no biggie either.

Freedom of speech is one thing. Spewing gratuitous hostilities in an otherwise congenial setting is another. That's superfluous and destructive.

Setting standards for an environment that nurtures friendly, respectful, and spirited conversation is paramount. Anything that crosses the line will hereby be deleted.

I'm adding one more: No spam. It gets deleted, so don't even go there.

So, what have we learned? Baiting and insults are no-nos. Not a difficult concept. My YouTube site has garnered the most vile comments I've ever seen, especially when I post videos of President Obama. The consensus is that YouTube is a stomping ground for the "barely literate, bio-hazardous scum" (a quote from a fellow YouTuber). I've had to stop allowing comments on some posts.

That segues me into a relevant article that a Twitter pal of mine, Plutoniumpage, linked me to. Here are random excerpts from an interview with Stephen Fry. Please go read the whole piece:

• "Of all the stinking, sliding, scuttling, weird, entomological creatures that inhabit the floor of the internet those comments on blogs are the most unbearable, almost beyond imagining..."

• "Their resentment, their desire to be heard at the most vituperative level, at the most unpleasant and malevolent, genuinely ill-willed malevolent, level is terrifying..."

• "There is something faintly disgusting in someone who merely wants to have sycophantic voices cooing in his ear and licking his inner thigh... but on the other hand it is a bit much that somehow people almost feel they have a right to be heard in their insulting of me. If I don't want to hear people being unpleasant about me I should have the right to turn it off."

• "...[S]ocial networking sites are making people more isolated as they turn to their computer screens rather than meeting people in real life."

• "The idea that the open exchange of information can have a positive global impact. If people are more informed then they become more engaged and if they are more engaged then they can become more empathetic."

And-- to quote a very civil, very wise, very brilliant man-- that's the way it is. But here at TPC at least, we try to keep it pleasant.

Trolls and other objectionable Commenters

By GottaLaff

It's time to re-post this Post-O'-Guidelines, since we seem to be having a new wave of trolls this summer. And good for us! Why good? Here's why:

Original post:

We know here at TPC that we are becoming more successful than ever before. How do we know that? Because we've seen an increasing number of trolls on our site.

This pathetic little band of drive-by and/or returning Commenters must feel awfully threatened, because they obviously feel the need to intrude on a harmonious family such as ours who have no interest in any of the illogical, ill-informed, baiting insults they fling around like ape feces (unless, of course, it's a genuine attempt at real conversation with at least a minimum of substance).

With that, here is a post I've been saving up. I found it at The Motley Moose. Here are some excerpts:

For many people, flaming and hostility are the only reasons to get online.

These are folks who suffer from a chronic case of assholicism.

Trolls.

troll
One who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers. He will spark of such an argument via the use of ad hominem attacks (i.e. 'you're nothing but a fanboy' is a popular phrase) with no substance or relevance to back them up as well as straw man arguments, which he uses to simply avoid addressing the essence of the issue.

It's much easier to criticise and inflame than it is to be creative and stimulating.

This is as true for the blogosphere as it is for the real world.

Not all trolls are loud, obnoxious and obvious though.

One of my favorites subset of trolls is one that does not fit this specific criteria.

The "polite" troll. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

These are usually the ones railing against opression and all about their right to spew whatever nonsense they are peddling that day.

They usually offer up blisteringly polite, well written 'snake under the rose' posts that are perfectly within the bounds of decency, but create unrest and dissatisfaction with cutting accuracy.

Disruptive people, who keep themselves just at the edge of acceptable behavior.

They can drive away the sane people just as much as the loud and obnoxious obvious trolls.

These are the posters all too often cry innocence and hide behind the very worthy excuse of open discussion, but are frequently just trying to stir up trouble.

Those are usually the ones accusing trusted and long time users of promoting censorship and trollish behavior.

Blogs have to walk a fine line though.

- Heavy handed mods find themselves with a dead community, because people do not want to be dictated to.

- Mods that exercise too little input also find themselves with a cobweb, because trolls come in and run people off. [...]

Kottke says a bit like so :

Much of the tone of discourse online is governed by the level of moderation and to what extent people are encouraged to "own" their words. When forums, message boards, and blog comment threads with more than a handful of participants are unmoderated, bad behavior follows. The appearance of one troll encourages others. Undeleted hateful or ad hominem comments are an indication that that sort of thing is allowable behavior and encourages more of the same. Those commenters who are normally respectable participants are emboldened by the uptick in bad behavior and misbehave themselves. More likely, they're discouraged from helping with the community moderation process of keeping their peers in line with social pressure. Or they stop visiting the site altogether. [...]

Gresham's Law

Gresham's law says that any circulating currency consisting of both "good" and "bad" money (both forms required to be accepted at equal value under legal tender law) quickly becomes dominated by the "bad" money. This is because people spending money will hand over the "bad" coins rather than the "good" ones, keeping the "good" ones for themselves.

Gresham's Law of trolls:

Trolls are willing to use a forum with a lot of thoughtful people in it, but thoughtful people aren't willing to use a forum with a lot of trolls in it.

Which means that once trolling takes hold, it tends to become the dominant culture.

Except for one thing: That's not going to happen here at TPC. As of January 1, 2009, I decided to make every attempt to delete/monitor troll comments if they are:

• Uncivil
• Pointlessly rambling
  
• Serve no other purpose other than to attempt to provoke a fight
• Redundant (ie: posting the same comment in several threads)
• Argumentative, simply spewing lies, without providing substance/facts
• Excessive in length (that goes for sympathetic Comments, too)
• Random, uncalled-for, irrelevant snottiness without regard to the content of that particular post
  

If I left anything out, please feel free to add to the list.

There are exceptions to all of these, of course. If a comment is longer than usual, but it's from a Commenter who adheres to protocol 99.9% of the time, we tend to be lenient. If a Comment is relatively innocuous, but simply annoying, that's no biggie either.

Freedom of speech is one thing. Spewing gratuitous hostilities in an otherwise congenial setting is another. That's superfluous and destructive.

Setting standards for an environment that nurtures friendly, respectful, and spirited conversation is paramount. Anything that crosses the line will hereby be deleted.

I'm done now.

Fox News claims ‘magic negro’ text was "inadvertently cleared for air"

By GottaLaff

Just like some of the so-called "polite" trolls, Fox News [sic] is defending itself against the "magic negro" crawl message it displayed on New Years Eve. From my Troll post:

Disruptive people, who keep themselves just at the edge of acceptable behavior. [...]

These are the posters all too often cry innocence and hide behind the very worthy excuse of open discussion, but are frequently just trying to stir up trouble.

Those are usually the ones accusing trusted and long time users of promoting censorship and trollish behavior.

Sound familiar? It should:

Instead of offering an apology, Scott took the opportunity to attack Fox’s rivals:

Fox News VP of programming Suzanne Scott explains, “We received tens of thousands of text message submissions during our New Years Eve special, and this particular viewer submission was inadvertently cleared for air. At FOX we recognize our error as opposed to networks who allow their hosts to utter crude vulgarities to the public.”

Fox New has a history of allowing racially-charged language aimed at Obama and his family to make it on air and then claiming it was simply a mistake. In June, after a Fox chyron referred to Michelle Obama as “Obama’s Baby Mama,” Fox’s Senior Vice President of Programming Bill Shine explained it by saying that “A producer on the program exercised poor judgment in using this chyron during the segment.”

Amazing, isn't it, how Faux News and trolls offer identical "innocent" excuses while pointing the finger at anyone but themselves. It won't wash on the Tee Vee Machine, and it doesn't wash here in the Blogosphere.

Trolls and other objectionable Commenters

By GottaLaff

We know here at TPC that we are becoming more successful than ever before. How do we know that? Because we've seen an increasing number of trolls on our site.

This pathetic little band of 4 a.m. drive-by Commenters must feel awfully threatened, because they obviously feel the need to intrude on a harmonious family such as ours who have no interest in any of the illogical, ill-informed, baiting insults they fling around like ape feces (unless, of course, it's a genuine attempt at real conversation with at least a minimum of substance).

With that, here is a post I've been saving up. I found it at The Motley Moose. Here are some excerpts:

For many people, flaming and hostility are the only reasons to get online.

These are folks who suffer from a chronic case of assholicism.

Trolls.

troll
One who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers. He will spark of such an argument via the use of ad hominem attacks (i.e. 'you're nothing but a fanboy' is a popular phrase) with no substance or relevance to back them up as well as straw man arguments, which he uses to simply avoid addressing the essence of the issue.

It's much easier to criticise and inflame than it is to be creative and stimulating.

This is as true for the blogosphere as it is for the real world.

Not all trolls are loud, obnoxious and obvious though.

One of my favorites subset of trolls is one that does not fit this specific criteria.

The "polite" troll. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

These are usually the ones railing against opression and all about their right to spew whatever nonsense they are peddling that day.

They usually offer up blisteringly polite, well written 'snake under the rose' posts that are perfectly within the bounds of decency, but create unrest and dissatisfaction with cutting accuracy.

Disruptive people, who keep themselves just at the edge of acceptable behavior.

They can drive away the sane people just as much as the loud and obnoxious obvious trolls.

These are the posters all too often cry innocence and hide behind the very worthy excuse of open discussion, but are frequently just trying to stir up trouble.

Those are usually the ones accusing trusted and long time users of promoting censorship and trollish behavior.

Blogs have to walk a fine line though.

- Heavy handed mods find themselves with a dead community, because people do not want to be dictated to.

- Mods that exercise too little input also find themselves with a cobweb, because trolls come in and run people off. [...]

Kottke says a bit like so :

Much of the tone of discourse online is governed by the level of moderation and to what extent people are encouraged to "own" their words. When forums, message boards, and blog comment threads with more than a handful of participants are unmoderated, bad behavior follows. The appearance of one troll encourages others. Undeleted hateful or ad hominem comments are an indication that that sort of thing is allowable behavior and encourages more of the same. Those commenters who are normally respectable participants are emboldened by the uptick in bad behavior and misbehave themselves. More likely, they're discouraged from helping with the community moderation process of keeping their peers in line with social pressure. Or they stop visiting the site altogether. [...]

Gresham's Law

Gresham's law says that any circulating currency consisting of both "good" and "bad" money (both forms required to be accepted at equal value under legal tender law) quickly becomes dominated by the "bad" money. This is because people spending money will hand over the "bad" coins rather than the "good" ones, keeping the "good" ones for themselves.

Gresham's Law of trolls:

Trolls are willing to use a forum with a lot of thoughtful people in it, but thoughtful people aren't willing to use a forum with a lot of trolls in it.

Which means that once trolling takes hold, it tends to become the dominant culture.

Except for one thing: That's not going to happen here at TPC. As of January 1, 2009, I decided to make every attempt to delete troll comments if they are:

• Uncivil
• Pointlessly rambling
  
• Serve no other purpose other than to attempt to provoke a fight
• Redundant (ie: posting the same comment in several threads)
• Argumentative, simply spewing lies, without providing substance/facts
• Excessive in length (that goes for sympathetic Comments, too)
• Random, uncalled-for, irrelevant snottiness without regard to the content of that particular post
  

If I left anything out, please feel free to add to the list.

There are exceptions to all of these, of course. If a comment is longer than usual, but it's from a Commenter who adheres to protocol 99.9% of the time, we tend to be lenient. If a Comment is relatively innocuous, but simply annoying, that's no biggie either.

Freedom of speech is one thing. Spewing gratuitous hostilities in an otherwise congenial setting is another. That's superfluous and destructive.

Setting standards for an environment that nurtures friendly, respectful, and spirited conversation is paramount. Anything that crosses the line will hereby be deleted.

I'm done now.