VIDEO-- Ali Soufan (Former FBI): Techniques Did NOT Produce Results Abu Zubaydah Shut Down, Stopped Talking

By GottaLaff

Watch Soufan (well, behind a partition) as he convincingly reminds us that torture does not work:



Clear? Clear.

It all depends on what the meaning of "torture" is

By GottaLaff

Now it's becoming a battle of definitions of torture, and whether it works. VERY rough liveblogging, but I did get a lot of it:

David Luban, Georgetown University law professor:

The word torture hadn't mysteriously changed its meaning. The statute were given the word common sense meanings. [Waterboarding] was called torture. It's the same in the 1983 dictionaries as it was in the statutes.

Lindsey Graham keeps trying to justify the concept that torture works sometimes, even though he's "against it". [Sorry, I missed who they were referring to, so I substituted with the word "someone"]

Graham:

If we put a spider in a jail cell, would that be torturing a person?

Luban:

If he believed spiders were deadly, yes. Otherwise no.

Graham:

Well, we're trying to exploit phobias here... If Bybee held a different view, is that being unethical?

Luban:

If he ignored the law, yes.

Graham:

So it comes down to your opinion?

Luban:

This case is one of many.

Graham:

The fact that you didn't tell me about a case, does that mean you were trying to hide something from me?? Did you know about the Ireland case?

Luban:

Of course I did.

Graham:

Well I'm not calling YOU unethical.

Luban:

Well, thank you.

Graham:

Can you say there was no good information? Cheney says there was good information obtained. One reason these techniques survived for hundreds of years is because they worked. Your testimony is not a complete repository of what happened during interrogations. (to Soufan)

Soufan (interrogator):

I mentioned my own personal experience.

Graham:

I have the highest regard for this gentleman, but it's not the whole story. Do you believe it would be wrong for Obama to authorize this outside the field manual if attack was imminent? Is Panetta qualified for his job?

Soufan: I believe he is [gets cut off]

Graham: [reading]

"If someone has urgent info.... who could be a ticking time bomb... we should do everything possible within the law to get that info... " Would Obama be wrong to consider a CIA request to engage...?

Soufan:

Key word from Panetta's quote: "within the law". No, the field manual is an outline for interrogation.

Graham:

Good.

Soufan wanted to say more, he kept trying, but time ran out. Soufan firmly believes that torture does not work, that more humane, non-coercive methods do, using relationship-building and deception. He got accurate results, using those techniques, with an hour. "It's about being smarter, not being harsher."

Graham:

Let's end with some agreement. I generally agree with the Geneva Convention. There's people with a different view. It doesn't make you unethical or a criminal. Waterboarding comes back to bite you. It's not necessary to win the war. But those who devised these techniques were not criminals.. they were Americans who were afraid that the next attack was on its way. If you're gonna be balanced about this, that needs to be told too. We need to look forward. Lincoln suspended habeas corpus. The techniques were shared with members of Congress who somehow can't remember what they were told. People made mistakes out of fear. The British may not have tortured people in N. Ireland, but they turned the people against them. They made a mistake in winning the people over of N. Ireland. If we restrict ourselves to the Army Field Manual, shame on us. It was written for soldiers, not to get intel about the next impending attack! [Yes, he's screaming] If we put it on the line and don't interrogate someone, we're stupid! The net was cast too large... nobody is in jail in Gitmo because Cheney said so. They're there because they're a military threat... not because we hate them, but what they did. That decision will go to the Supreme Court.... We should not unilaterally surrender, treat these people as common criminals... The principal I'm advocating: Hit them before they hit us attitude, find out what they're up to... We can do that without having to go back to the Inquisition. I'm so afraid what we're doing today will chill out future legal advice, ruining reputations of those who tried their best [paraphrased].

Now, with your permission, Paddy and I would like to take Lindsey Graham out to the woodshed, and... well, the rest is classified.

Top FBI Agent Will Detail Failures Of Enhanced Interrogation, Contradict Claim That It Worked

Greg has alot more, including an outline of Soufan's testimony. Wonder how much time this will get on the cablers? You can stream the hearing here.

A top FBI interrogator who witnessed CIA enhanced interrogations firsthand will offer a detailed explanation at a Senate hearing today of the ways the techniques were ineffective and even counterproductive — and will directly contradict claims that they extracted high-value information, according to an advance copy of his testimony.

(snip)

The use of the techniques “taints sources, risks outcomes, ignores the end game, and diminishes our moral high ground in a battle that is impossible to win without first capturing the hearts and minds around the world,” he will say. “It was one of the worst and most harmful decisions made in our efforts against al Qaeda.”

Soufan, an F.B.I. supervisory special agent from 1997 to 2005, is set to testify today before the Senate Judiciary Committee.